Carl: Hello, and welcome to the SaaS growth podcast.

We're here this week with Marko Saric , one of the founders of Plausible.io, an analytics platform that's challenging Google.

Marko dives into the secrets of making the most of analytics for your business, tips for effective content marketing, and how to grow a business that competes with a free competitor.

How are you today, Marko?

Marko: Hey Carl, I'm very well. Thanks for the invite.

Carl: Thank you so much for being here. Let's start from the top. How did Plausible come to exist? What was the driving reason for starting an analytics service?

Marko: So my co-founder is the developer of the co-founding team. I'm the marketer. So he started because there was a big shift a few years back and it's still ongoing. Like how many people felt that Google has changed what they liked of Google before turned into something different and it turned more into optimizing revenue or for the shareholders and whatever.

So they were trying to squeeze everything and many people are now like doubting, people used to share everything about Google, say many good words about them, and now they're like, oh, maybe everything is not that well. Basically that combined with the fact that GDPR came into place and all those previous regulations in Europe and around the world after that.

So those kind of two big trends made my co-founder say, oh, maybe there's a better way of doing this. So he started developing it and I joined him one year into it. We built and we are still building a more privacy-friendly version of web analytics something that's more lightweight fast to load.

And something that's easy to understand, intuitive, simple. 'cause there are many people, that's biggest issues with Google Analytics is like, okay, it's sub-optimal in terms of privacy. It's pretty heavy. It's pretty difficult to understand.

So these are the three core principles we've tried to do the opposite of. So privacy friendly, lightweight, and easy to use and to understand. So that's a little bit about Plausible and how it started. 

Carl: How'd you find out that was a problem that people cared about en masse and was enough to start a company around?

Marko: It's not like uh, we did any research in that sense. Like there was no like, oh, let's do a market survey 10% of people must be unhappy for us to start this. No, we felt uh, the problem in ourselves, you know, we felt that this is not going the way we expected. We could see, you know, with the GDPR, that kind, the awareness of issues was increasing and that was enough for us to, to go and, okay let, let's see let's see how it goes.

It's not like we were not assured that there will be success here. We were not, we did not know there was a market here that people will be paying for analytics rather than getting them for free from Google. There was not much, it's not like there's no big case study or whatever behind let's do this big presentation and make sure to do a lot of research in order to just start working on, we just we started developing from day one.

Like, okay, I have this idea. Let me start building it. And, day after day here we are, five years later.

Carl: I did see your article on your blog. It's the very first one: "Is Google Analytics Illegal?" So it's clearly a very strong message there.

Marko: That was so that's the latest. I haven't published much recently, but that's the latest one I published. And that's because since last year, I think January was the first country, several countries in Europe throughout last year. So twenty-twenty-three. They went and like, okay, Google, this is illegal.

Google, I think Austria was the first. And we had several other Applic, Denmark, Italy. So basically there's quite a few European countries that actually went and there was a court cases and whatever and they went and they actually determined that Google is illegal. So that was like a post summarizing those things.

It was not even our own opinion. It was more like, okay, this is what I dunno, data protection agency in this country said, this is what they said in this country and so on.

Carl: So how'd you go about growing Plausible originally? When it was relatively unknown, especially given that there was this industry giant that you had to compete with.

Marko: Like I mentioned, I joined about one year into it. We were, 400 monthly recurring revenue and about 50 subscribers. So that was that was pretty small and pretty early. So what we started doing then is similar to this Google is illegal posts. It's content marketing.

That's what I know, that's what I have experience in. And I just start publishing a lot of content content about ourselves and what do we do and how we do it. Like first blog post I published was, I think something like seven Reasons why You should Remove Google Analytics from your website or something along those lines.

It was the headline. So basically content that's less about Plausible itself. It's not trying to sell what we do, but content that's, informational, educational some kind of insights in there, some kind of personal opinion in there. Basically I try to create content that I think people like me, people like us, will find interesting.

Will make them hear about us, make them share it with their networks, their friends, and so on. I think I published about two posts per week for at least six months in a row. And again, all of these posts were 1000 plus words and not really being sales.

It was just trying to be informative, having an opinion and share it with the world. That's how it went, basically, like, some of those posts went on top of Hacker News, some of them went on Indie Hacker. Some of them were shared on Twitter. There's a lot of different ways that posts get spread.

And that's how it happens. Like, okay, somebody might have read my post about why you should not use Google inside your website and then three weeks later at their institution, they're like, oh, I really don't like this Google and think... "oh, but I remember those guys that I read their posts a few weeks ago and let me check out what they're doing."

And that's how it happens. Pretty much like indirect growth as part of this kind of post that we published caused by those posts and people that were reading those posts. So that's pretty much how it went. And we haven't really changed that approach either to this day.

Just that's how we do it.

Carl: Yeah, I've always been a fan of content marketing too. And it is that whole, like you never really sell. You're always just trying to answer questions. But how do you go about assessing whether something's worth writing about or worth creating content about, and whether it would be valuable.

Marko: For me, I don't use any tools like, research, keyboard research tools and whatever. For me it's more about what I feel. As part of the audience, as part of people that are interested in what we're doing as a marketer who's using analytics, if I feel the topic is interesting enough for me, then I feel like there will be more people interested in the same thing and then I just write it out.

It's it's good when there's a topic that there was something in the news related to it. For example, Google Analytics is illegal. It is obvious, okay, this country made Google Analytics illegal. Let's write it out. That's very obvious one to do. There's all these opinionated pieces.

Google always does something and many people are not happy. They always have some initiatives, and I've tried to follow what's happening in the news about what Google does or what there's previous regulations about. Basically any topical. That's where you can, can say, okay, it's interesting to me, but it's also in the news and people are talking about it, and more people are being aware about it.

So if we can write something with our own personal spin on it, with our own point of view on it it could work, there could be enough of people that are interested in it that it would get thousands of pages and many shares and uploads and so on. So there's no like big structure.

I cannot like. Comment and tell you, okay, this is how we do it and this is the next ten posts you should do exactly like this. It depends on the feel, on the experience, on what's going on in the world, what we see people are talking about. That's how it works really.

Carl: Are those topical posts more about the fact that people are more likely to share something that's in the zeitgeist at the moment?

Marko: Yeah, so basically it's like a mix. It's like something that's related to what we do, something that people like in general. Something that's growing interest about. If you actually do look for those keyword research tools, you won't really find this, they're early on or, it's like many of the posts we've done they've got a spike from say, Twitter or Hacker News, but they don't have that much Google traffic because there's just not enough search interest. Maybe that's the part we could get better at is actually try and figure out what do people search for and try to optimize for that.

But yeah, most of the posts that I've wrote they're more like on the other side is like, okay, we find the need because of some news or something internal and let's post about it and see how it goes rather than the other way. Okay, let's go find the need somewhere else. Find what people search for and optimize according to that.

It's a different approach. So basically if you look at our search traffic today. A lot of stuff coming from Google. A lot of visitors like organic Google search. But most of those, like, I would say something like 70% is like branded searches.

 Plausible analytics, Plausible.io. So the content is not necessarily focused on SEO, it's not made to be optimized for search the content I publish, but it ends up being something that drives people to search for our name eventually. 'cause they hear our name, they like the content, and a few weeks down the line they're like, okay, I have a need for this.

Let me go find those guys again. So yeah I would say it's a little bit different than the more standard approaches. Like I go hrefs, type in your keywords, Sorted by the highest or whatever, lowest competition and write about that write 500 words about this.

It's it's a little bit different approach.

Carl: Because of the slow burn of content marketing. How do you know that...

Marko: you dunno. For example, that first blog post that I published about why you should remove Google Analytics from your website, it had I think about 20,000 visitors in first day or so, but there was no big increase in signups. It's not like, oh, I'm gonna click on this because I saw it on Twitter, and I'm gonna read it for one minute and I'm gonna go take one hour of my day and I'm gonna go and look everything, sign up for this website, install it on my website, and go through the whole process, setting it up.

It's not like ads. If you have an ad, or buy this, if somebody searches, I'm gonna buy for buy this T-shirt, and you click on an ad, then maybe you buy it immediately. This is more long term, so there's no immediate spike in sign-ups. But if you look at what happened 2, 3, 4 weeks after that big spike of that first blog post, you can see that we gradually had an increase in your channel sign-ups, and then we gradually an increase in sign-ups from trial to subscription.

You won't know on the day that you publish whether it works or not. So it's more about trusting the approach and knowing that if you do it well, you do it consistently and actually you publish content that people actually like and read. Then you will see, I dunno, maybe even three, four weeks down the line, but probably even months down the line, you will see a difference and suddenly you will start growing and you might not necessarily be able to associate it directly to that post.

 You cannot attribute it directly. Okay. I read this blog post four weeks ago and now they're signing up. So that's not possible either in this privacy world where there's no cookies and so on. But you will know that thanks to the content you published and thanks to the work you did to get the content out there to people.

You starting to see this increase. So I think the day before I started, I think there was like one Google search visitor on our website. Like one single person that, that was 2020 I think March or something like that. It was one, I looked at it like the day before I started. I was like, let me check. One.

And I was like, okay, let me, let's get to 10 and let's, so basically let's get to hundred and now we are at about eight, 900 per day. Organic Google visitors. So it's a gradual approach. You publish content and you trust the system, you trust what you're doing and then eventually we'll start seeing the results too.

Not only the traffic, but actually, what counts, like MRR. Yeah, that, that's how it goes really. You cannot really, you cannot really know immediately. It's not like ads, it's not like paid ads.

Carl: You are fortunate that you belong to your audience. Do you have any advice for people who can't just use their own need to generate content for content marketing?

Marko: So that, that's gonna be much more difficult. I'm into this because I'm into this. That's why we started working on it. That's why we care about it, because we care about the topic, that's what makes you drive through the good days, the bad days. That's what makes you put in the effort over, five years now, so if I didn't care about this topic, I don't know if I will be here still or if I would've started in the first place. So I don't think of, it feels forced to me, but I understand like, if you have a job and you're working for a company, you don't necessarily have passion for what they do, but you just have a task.

Or let's write then maybe these tools-

Carl: It's not necessarily about passion, it's just more that often as a SaaS owner, you aren't necessarily your own customer. So like you're obviously trying to help your customers and solve your customers problems, but you can't look at your own problems to find out what they are.

Marko: I think these tools might become more useful in the end than, the SEO tools where you can actually do the research of what people are searching for. Talking to your customers is obvious. What I do even to this day is like I read all the support emails that we get.

Not necessarily be the one that replies to them, but I'm the one that reads them. So every email's been sent to us. I've read every tweet tagged with us. I've read in LinkedIn posts. I think it's important to speak to people, to listen to what they're saying. So yeah, even if you're not part of that audience, the core audience.

You, you may figure it out and you may become the core audience, or you understand them better by listening. So wherever that is, be it SEO tools, if you're early on and you have nobody that speaks to you, or later on, when actually people start writing to you all the time, then you can, listen to them, figure out what they actually want, ask them questions, speak to them and you may be able to understand them better.

But I would say in general, if you're a founder, ideally you would actually be the audience. You will scratch your own itch, as they say. That will really help you, especially in those early days when there's nobody that actually speaks to you, nobody's out, sending you emails and asking you questions and giving you feedback.

Carl: Do you have any advice for businesses who have been looking to improve their analytics or make better use of the information they're gathering?

Marko: I think for example, Plausible analytics dashboard is pretty simple. If you just join and don't do anything, you can see the referral sources, the entry pages, countries, all the basic stuff, but one thing that you can do to amplify the value you get out of it is to set up custom events.

So like what we've done on our own site, we've set up custom events for things such as sign up for a trial account, sign up for a paid subscription, things like this. And then that allows you to then filter and segment your audience and say, okay, show me only those that have signed up for a trial account.

Then you can actually see what are the top sources that drive the sign-ups rather than the top sources of traffic that just drive the traffic in general. Then you can do the same for paid subscription. You can then see how many of the trial sign ups ended up paying subscribers and there's there's a lot more value

the deeper you get into that, like segmenting your audience, then you can get much more value out of it. And which we recommend for everyone. Use the default dashboard. It's already gives you a lot of stuff, but then set up custom events for anything actionable that you want to track in that sense.

Any kind of actions you want people to take on your site, on your app. And so that, that's the first step and the kind of the most important step really to get more value outta your analytics. And something I recommend to everyone.

Carl: Do you have any examples of things that Plausible has done with their analytics in a similar vein?

Marko: Yeah, so we've set up custom events. We've started setting these custom dimensions from Google Analytics. It's called Custom Dimensions. It's called custom properties. In Plausible, you set up a data, you send data alongside each conversion or alongside each page view. And basically all of this allows you to segment your audience more concretely.

 You can segment by login status. Like, okay, I have a SaaS app, which means that I have a marketing site, I have the app site, I want to see the traffic all the way through. I wanna see referral source on the marketing site that sent a sign up on the app, so follow that whole journey.

 Then you can say exclude the logged in traffic. Show me only those that never logged in. There's many ways to slice the data and then it really depends on what you do with your marketing, what you take from those insights.

 Unlike us, many companies do paid advertising and then it's really like, okay, I can see this UTM campaign. Send this many signups, send this much activity, logged in activity. What does that mean for us? How do we change our paid marketing? So we maybe spend money in a different way. For us, because we do content marketing, which is mostly, unpaid, organic, we don't need to change this because we're not spending thousands of dollars.

Marko: We don't need to make changes all the time. We just follow our approach. But yeah, custom events. You can see that whole kind of journey from the first entry on your landing page to the conversion. And yeah that's what we follow too.

We basically, we, eat your own dog food or whatever they say. We basically use Plausible to figure out what's going on with Plausible analytics itself. We don't have any other analytics tools installed or anything like that.

Carl: So I was looking at your guys' marketing site, and I'm gonna say it's a thing of beauty what you've done there. I think the one that's doing the heavy lifting, which a little "Why Plausible?" Button. Which it looks like you've segmented your entire market into a series of long-form sales pages.

 How did that come about and how did you work out what you needed to create and how to segment correctly?

Marko: Those four or five pages, those are the first things I've done when I joined, before even I wrote the first blog post, I was like, let's work on our marketing site. Let's slightly twist our positioning. So we're more focused on what we do that's better than Google analytics.

Then I was like let's create each of these topics that we're better at, lightweight, privacy friendly, easy to use. that's what I know. I dunno how to create graphics. I dunno how to create videos. So I just write, so I wrote a blog post for each of these topics.

And it's still there with minimal edits five years later. And still, what drives the awareness of what we do so people understand the needs that they have and what we can help them with. So how did I figure those topics out? Very similar to the blog posts. Like I was the user of Google Analytics.

I knew what I didn't like about Google Analytics. I didn't like that it had hundreds of reports. The left-hand sidebar had hundreds of sub-menus. Okay? Plausible is completely different. You just have one, one report, one page. Let me write about that.

Then, oh, Google Analytics, if you install it and run those Google PageSpeed checkers, it tells you, oh, you have Google Analytics installed, it slows down your site. Maybe you should remove it. Google tells you themselves to do that. So I was like. Let me try how it does with Plausible and no warning.

No warnings about removing it. Let me write about that. Why is that? Let me do a deep dive into how heavy is the Google script, how heavy is our script? What are the differences? So I wrote about that. Then obviously the privacy angle many people in Europe, or everywhere around the world, they had to put cookie consent banners because they're tracking personal data due to their use of Google Analytics.

And I was like, okay, we don't do any of that, so let me write a blog post about that, or marketing page about that. So again, it's basically knowing what the issues are with who you're competing against what kind of people are struggling with. And then if you're solving those issues in your product, then you write about it.

So that's what we've done. And those four or five posts are still the core reasons why people come to Plausible five years later. That hasn't changed. I think did all those posts in like first five, 10 days of joining. They're still like the core. We haven't pivoted or switched around or followed different trends.

It's just the same. We've done it. We built a product originally. Now we just improving it, making it better, and then listen to feedback. But those core principles, so why people are unhappy about Google and happy about switching to us. They're still the same as they were back then when I wrote them.

Carl: Do you have any advice for people who are looking to write marketing pages? Especially 'cause yours are quite long form and several thousand words of really breaking it down.

Marko: I don't see this format very often. Like when I click around the different SaaS pages, it's more about graphics, not many words. So I actually don't know if this is a good thing, like what we have, it works for us. It delivers results and I'm very happy with it.

 Actually, we are thinking to improve the design, but the content itself does not need to change it much from our perspective. So whether this approach, the kind of the text-heavy, opinionated content approach works for all the different startups. I don't know.

Maybe the approach of a little bit of text, more images, videos, that walk you through the product. Maybe they're better for some. It's not like we went and, okay, let's try the text-heavy first, or then let's try the image-heavy. Let's try the video.

And like did the A-B testing. We didn't do any of that. We're bootstrapped. That means we don't have many resources. We don't have money, we don't have people. Now we have a team obviously, but back, five years ago we, there were two of us and we just did what we knew, what we had experience with, what we could do, so like that was out of necessity. It was like, okay, let's do a text. Just write everything we want to communicate in text. cause that's what we knew. So whether this approach is best for us even, or for everyone, I don't know. Like, it's just what we do. If you are a real proper startup with the venture funded and lots of people, you will maybe do tests and you will do, you'll try, experiment 'em all and get the results. 

Okay, 1% increase in your conversions if you do it with a video, or if you do 500 words less or whatever. We just didn't do that. So we just do it because this is what we knew. And yeah, basically like you say, our content is very tech-savvy, it's like blog posts everywhere. 

Carl: I have definitely seen some success with long form sales pages and marketing pages. So it is interesting that it has been so successful for you guys. Because I think a lot of the problem with the real concise marketing is that you often miss a lot of the nuance and a lot of the opportunity to really sell or explain your product and be like, this is the value we offer and the clearest of terms in favor of just a quick sound bite.

So I think you guys have done an excellent job of that, and I highly recommend anyone listening to go and look at Plausible site and the why Plausible section because.

Marko: I'm glad to hear that. Just a few weeks ago, we started working on like, because five years ago, again, we were just two, we just used some kind of template for the design. We just, a few weeks ago we were like, okay, now we are at this stage we can afford a budget to like do a redesign.

So we've got a new logo done and we are working on a new design of, our landing page to make it consistent with the blog and the documentation and so on. And we realized so early in that process that I'm like, I'm a bit concerned. Like, we don't want to change too much. We want to make it nicer.

And, so it's a bit more professional quote unquote, but we don't wanna change, that it actually works. So I think the first, pitch to the designer that's gonna work on this will be like, make it nicer, but don't change the text. And then we will see.

But yeah I think it's completely different approach and I think somebody like Basecamp. I really like their approach, their books and the way they communicate.

And I think they do something similar with lots of words as well. But there's not many examples. It's not like if you tell me, can you share more of these companies that do the same approach? I just cannot tell you more. I think Basecamp is the only one I would really highlight, so I really don't know why that is.

 I'm really curious for this process that we're gonna do for redesigning our own site the landing page and so on, to see. How that's gonna turn out and whether we can keep keep the same feel of lots of text or whether we're gonna go into, for me, what looks like everyone else. every SAS page is the same.

Marko: I hope we, we don't go there.

Carl: Going on sort of what Basecamp does as, as well, what you guys do. You guys are very public about the inside of your company and how it's running and you're constantly posting your MRR when you sign new customers. So how has that been working for you guys how important do you think that is to your customers and your business?

Marko: That started, 'cause of this indie hacking movement. Work in public, build in public. So my co-founder is he is not a marketer. So when he started, what he started doing is like, I'm just gonna post what I'm doing on Indie Hackers, on Twitter, and so on. So he also started then, okay I now have first 50 Beta testers, and then, oh, I got the first subscriber.

Now my MRR is $5, or whatever. So it started doing that. When I joined, I was, okay let's continue. There's no point in stopping what you've already done. It got us to 50 subscribers at that stage. Let's continue this approach. There's this whole community of people that share these numbers on Twitter especially, and IndieHackers.

Let's join it and let's see. What I did I main change was like, I'm gonna add marketing. Insights into it. Like, this is what we've done and what we've learned and what we haven't done in terms of marketing and communication to add on top of the numbers. So we've done that. It was really motivating also for us, like, okay, 1000 MRR, let's post it.

2000 MRR. I think we stopped posting when we reached, I think it was a hundred thousand MRR. At some stage it was like, 

 Okay, 110,000, 150,000, 200, so we stopped posting at some point. But those early days, I think it was really motivating both for us and obviously to see the reactions. People in this indie hacking community, they like to see, and learn and get inspired by others doing similar things. And especially if you're bootstrapped, you start without any big resources, you make it a bit and you make 10,000 MRR. It's quite a big thing in those circles. And I really enjoyed it and I think it's, it doesn't really make a big difference in terms of our customers, like re post.

So we have 250 MRR. 250K MRR now or whatever we have. It's not like it's gonna make a big difference to people that want us to deliver our quality analytics service that gives them insight so they can run their businesses. But because it was useful from that perspective early on, it's like, okay, we're gonna share it, it motivates us.

It makes us part of this community and we learn from each other and it was more around that.

Carl: So what do you think about Plausible has allowed you to charge people successfully? Compared to Google Analytics?

Marko: To charge.

Carl: Yeah, because as you, you brought it up before that analytics is a free product. And you guys are paid and, but you are successful as a paid product. So what do you think is behind that and why that works?

Marko: Yeah. I think we have 12,600 something subscribers, like paying subscribers, active paying subscribers. So yeah. Tons of people are happy to pay, but still one of the biggest questions we have is like, why cannot I use this for free?

If you look at our inbox and so on it's a completely different concept to what most site owners, bloggers and so on, they used to, because everyone goes Google Analytics first, and it's free, and you never worry about paying for analytics. But then suddenly you're like. I've read about this post where I saw a tweet about them, or I read a blog post.

And they charge for analytics. There's no free tier. They're like, why don't you have it? I think the reason, even if it's like a strange concept for many, the reason that we can have this amount of people that pay for it is the things that we discussed before is that we've discovered, say 3, 4, 5

things that people don't like about Google Analytics, and then they are happy to use a different service, even if it's a paid service, if it solves those issues. Because for a marketer, for a business owner, analytics is something that's important to you and you. Some people spend hours on analytics every day.

Imagine spending hours in a tool that you hate. 'cause it's slow to load, it's difficult to understand, difficult to find things inside. Why wouldn't you then pay $9, which is our lowest tier, in order to have the hours to spend on it daily be more comfortable, easier, more enjoyable. 

 We're more privacy friendly, we are more lightweight and easy to use. So those same aspect is also what makes people happy to pay. Because for example, it's now very understood that if something's free, maybe you are the product yourself as a user so Google is free.

Why is Google Analytics for free? Why would Google, a company, spend so much time, resources, servers... I dunno how much it costs them, but I'm sure it costs 'em a lot of money to run that thing. Why would they have it for free? Because maybe you are the product or your data that goes into those analytics, maybe the product that's used for something different.

Yeah, many people are, because of the previous regulations and everything that's happened over the last few years, many people are understanding that more .

 So they're paying a few dollars or whatever every month for something that they can get for free from Google. I'm sure Microsoft has some free, and I dunno what other . So I think that kind of mindset has shifted.

Not to everyone, obviously for everyone, but many people are now happy to pay for services that will get them something they value. Be it time or experience or privacy or control even though they have options where they can get it for free. So I think we're part of that trend.

I know as a user 10 years ago, I didn't pay for anything. There's so many of these things are for free. Now I pay for many services because you just now have better options. And I'm happy to pay to support people that create those better options so they can continue creating them.

Carl: Do you think you've lost anything by not having a free tier?

Marko: Yeah, one of our ideas is we'd like to remove Google Analytics from as many websites as possible. And it's just not that simple if we need to charge for the product, 'cause many people have a personal website, I have a blog, or I'm not I'm not charging for this. I'm not making money from my website. I just have traffic. 

They're like, oh, my website is run for free on this hosting service or whatever. And now I have to pay for analytics. That hurdle is still there, so if we want to remove Google from as many websites as possible... without free, that's difficult.

So yeah, charging for product is very important for us because it made us sustainable financially. And now we have a team of eight full-time people. There's several different kind of freelance kind of part-time on the side that work for us as well. Paid as well. So we have a sustainable business that can help us put effort into this and improve it all the time and have very quality service.

That will not have been possible if you just set it for free, obviously without having investors. So now I think maybe in the future it might be a good idea to get a free tier, just because we can not because it'll do any difference to us as a business, but just because we can then say, if you come to us and, oh, I have a.

I dunno, personal website or a blog and I'm not monetizing it, or maybe you can use it for free in that case. That will be, a dream scenario for us will be like to invest some of our earnings and say, okay, you can use it for free to monetize, to, I dunno, like basically we will subsidize free tier from our earnings, but maybe long term we will do that, but yeah it's not it's not easy as a indie hacking bootstrap company to have a free tier because, again, free is really something other companies do to monetize something else, or they use their free service data for something else that they monetize. So it's again, that, that part about you are the product of a free service. That's the, there's a really, like a different concept for what we try to do but yeah, ideally in order to remove Google Analytics from as many websites as possible, we would have some kind of free offering for some people in the future.

Carl: Thank you so much for coming, Marko. Again, thank you so much for being on. It's been a pleasure talking to you.

Marko: Thanks very much, Carl. Yeah, appreciate it.

Carl: That was Marko Saric, the co-founder of Plausible. If you want to check out Plausible, you can find them at plausible.io

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